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Papo and Yo [Nov 28th - Dec 1]

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Post December 5th, 2013, 3:52 pm

Posts: 887
viroodiem wrote:
Thank you. I do appreciate and respect that IGS Has so far been good about making very few Steam only selections.. I even indirectly acknowledged that in the original post. That is why I am and remain a customer of IGS. IGS has been very good about changing things as new avenues open up. I apologize if my post seemed directed at IGS, when it was intended more as a response to seeing so many indie outlets pushing that direction. For example what has been seen clearly in the changes with Humble Bundle's network in the last 3 months alone with how often they tack on that disclaimer of

"Please Note: All of the games are only available via Steam "

to each new promotion they run.

I simply express, when it became a relevant point to express, to the IGS community that It would be very regrettable for that already struggling minority trying to resist Steams influence (or really any of the big boys like EA, MS, Sony, etc for that matter) and still be gamers to not have to watch yet another of their dwindling gaming sources fall under anti competitive, anti consumer influences.

So I was not trying to make it sound like IGS had done anything wrong. Quite the contrary. What I was trying to express is that IGS is far too important to the minority of people who take exception to steam. In that you and all of your staff have my and many others gratitude for being such a great alternative.


Yes, i strongly agree with disappointment about latest Humble transformation in steam resellers. Too much steam-only weekly's, bundles and unpleasant absence of downloads for newly released not-steam-only-actually games in Humble Store.

But as sane peoples we can, to our sadness, understand why such changes is taking place. If we just compare overall gross revenue for steam-only bundles and weekly's on Humble its easy to notice that they usually more profitable :(. Even here, on IGS - https://indiegamestand.com/top-sales.php if we look at most profitable deals we can see that #1 and #2 place taken by steam-only titles.
And this is making me exceptionally sad. Why peoples purchasing much better if its only steam key provided? Is steam-only games naturally better? Even better then game which is available in other sources too?

Humble is gradually losing interest in selling non-steam or just providing downloads due lesser sales and more maintenance burden and lot peoples tends to see steam status like mark of quality - Game not on steam -> game is not good enough to enter steam -> game is crap thus splitting game market in two fractions - "good" steam games and "bad" non steam ones.
And this again making sources like IGS exceptionally valuable to keep things in balance. i believe that IGS stuff never planned to serve as soldier in combat between Steam vs Other but thats how things is turning now.

Post December 5th, 2013, 4:19 pm

Posts: 946
Location: Utah
Toyotame wrote:
You cannot be anti-DRM and use steam

I am such a person, but I have a great deal of cognitive dissonance as a result. I simply cannot miss out on the great Steam-only games and features that Steam provides. I definitely don't have the willpower to boycott. I first installed it when Half Life 2 came out, because there was no way I wasn't going to play that game.

Post December 5th, 2013, 4:42 pm

Posts: 47
Toyotame wrote:


Yes, i strongly agree with disappointment about latest Humble transformation in steam resellers. Too much steam-only weekly's, bundles and unpleasant absence of downloads for newly released not-steam-only-actually games in Humble Store.

Is steam-only games naturally better? Even better then game which is available in other sources too?



I appreciate the commiseration. You bring up something that Shad0WeN also mirrored. It is important to look at the entire picture as well as the method of interpreting the data.

For example here on IGS it is true that the two top sellers now are steam only offerings and they rake in more than others. You have to look deeper than that. For example given that steam keys require at least 1$, you have no 0.25 bare minimum PWYW in their total. (who is going to pay money to get nothing in return?) So if a steam only offer and non exclusive/DRM free entry are compared, (lets say Guns of Icarus Vs Pid both selling over 7000) you see nearly 4k difference that does not make up the roughly 400 units sold disparity. Had PID been key exclusive and maintained the same number of sales it would easily have surpassed P&Y with roughly $13.270 By default any key exclusive IGS offer will invariably raise the total dollar amount because of the 1$ for key barrier of entry vs the .25 barrier of entry for non key exclusives.



Another bigger picture element to look at is you have to question how many of these units sold are unique actual gamers, and how many of them are other competing steam resellers buying bulk numbers of 1$ steam keys with the intention to utilize them in their own bundles later. Another factor, for the example of Papo & Yo, is how many alternatives does that specific entry have? Effectively you can only get P&Y for either PSN or Windows via steam. GoI is similar with PS4 version in the works. So if the only means to obtain it is through Steam, of course gamers and steam resellers alike are going to flock to anything that will put the price of the product to its absolute bare minimum knowing that for that game it is the only game in town. If people had other means than steam to play either of these titles, even from the manufacturer, they would be far less likely to buy it from one source in the hopes an alternative source might eventually have a better offer.

And further on that bigger picture, prior to Papo & Yo, Anti Steam/Anti DRM Champion GOG held four out of the top 10 slots with two others (at least currently ) not being available on Steam at all. That helps to illustrate where those who have anti steam positions do in fact make up tangible chunks of IGS buyers. So the data is not as ominous to anti steam users as it might seem.

Post December 5th, 2013, 5:04 pm

Posts: 606
Location: Wilmo Delaware! Represent

Don't worry - we're happy with how Papo and Yo did, but we're also very hopeful that the developer will release DRM free PC, Mac and Linux ports on IGS. We have no intention of doing Steam only sales and HAVE been approached by other developers to do such sales and turned them down. The game and opportunity has to make sense for us. In Guns of Icarus's case, that game is MP only and runs its matchmaking/online on Steam's servers. For Papo & Yo, they did indicate they were working on DRM Free versions of the game and ports to other platforms in their emails to us... so while we didn't wait for this - we're hopeful that those versions will be uploaded so the game can make it's way to our store.

Post December 5th, 2013, 5:17 pm

Posts: 513
Great news to hear :D
Games I Support For IGS:
    Cinders
    Consortium
    Beat Bros
    Delver's Drop
    Long Live the Queen
    Deo
    Shovel Knight

Post December 5th, 2013, 8:36 pm

Posts: 887
viroodiem wrote:
I appreciate the commiseration. You bring up something that Shad0WeN also mirrored. It is important to look at the entire picture as well as the method of interpreting the data.

Ok, i agree with you. Have to tell that i never really guessed that there is that much of less then 1$ purchases here. That makes me sad.

Next, key reselling, Yes, i guess there is some of such activity going one too, but overall IGS is not best place to collect keys for cheap - its not allows you to do miltiple purchases, its need to create multiple accounts, even if you get gifts, its still not very convenient to use for THAT things. Also, a LOT of games sold here reappear later elsewhere even cheaper - current Indie Bundle on Groupees for example, 1$ tier is equal of 5(!!!)$ spent here. Doesn't looks like profitable for resellers.

mgnade wrote:
For Papo & Yo, they did indicate they were working on DRM Free versions of the game and ports to other platforms in their emails to us...

Thats great news.

Post December 5th, 2013, 8:49 pm

Posts: 1550
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Toyotame wrote:
Next, key reselling, Yes, i guess there is some of such activity going one too, but overall IGS is not best place to collect keys for cheap - its not allows you to do miltiple purchases, its need to create multiple accounts, even if you get gifts, its still not very convenient to use for THAT things.

Not that I'm trying to encourage key reselling, but just so you know, you don't have to make multiple accounts to keep more than one key in your wallet.

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Post December 5th, 2013, 10:27 pm

Posts: 887
That...came past me unnoticed. But pushing that button sends gift to some mail. right? Receiver still need to make account and so on?

Post December 5th, 2013, 10:33 pm

Posts: 1550
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Toyotame wrote:
That...came past me unnoticed. But pushing that button sends gift to some mail. right? Receiver still need to make account and so on?

Actually, I forgot, I only did this once. I bought the game twice, and it showed up in my wallet with an 'extra copies' button like that. I *think* it was a desura key, but I don't remember. mgnade might be able to clear that up.
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Post December 6th, 2013, 12:21 pm

Posts: 606
Location: Wilmo Delaware! Represent

It's an IGS Key - yes folks need to create an account with us, but they would get keys to all platforms that the game was available on.

Post January 16th, 2014, 6:03 pm

Posts: 887
All downloadable stuff was added in wallets (OST too) since game came out of Steam-only status. OFC fact that its in lowest tier of Humble Bundle X kinda ruin fun a little but..never guess!

Post February 25th, 2014, 7:17 am

Posts: 176
mgnade wrote:
Don't worry - we're happy with how Papo and Yo did, but we're also very hopeful that the developer will release DRM free PC, Mac and Linux ports on IGS. We have no intention of doing Steam only sales and HAVE been approached by other developers to do such sales and turned them down. The game and opportunity has to make sense for us. In Guns of Icarus's case, that game is MP only and runs its matchmaking/online on Steam's servers. For Papo & Yo, they did indicate they were working on DRM Free versions of the game and ports to other platforms in their emails to us... so while we didn't wait for this - we're hopeful that those versions will be uploaded so the game can make it's way to our store.


Thanks for this insight, both of those examples make sense. I have to ask though, what is the reasoning behind Blood of the Werewolf being Steam only? It's particularly perplexing because a DRM-free version already exists, it was sold in a Groupees bundle.

Post February 26th, 2014, 12:00 pm

Posts: 606
Location: Wilmo Delaware! Represent

Blood of the Werewolf was really just a timing issue and the developer didn't want to offer the old DRM version because a new one is in the works. I emailed him and got this response:
We will have a new DRM free version in about 3 weeks. We have multiple updates and game modes coming online for the console and PC versions. Our updater is not as strong as it should be so I am trying to limit the amount of versions circulating.

So hopefully, we'll have a DRM free build and a launch in our store next month.

Post March 4th, 2014, 6:27 am

Posts: 176
That makes sense and kudos to the dev for not wanting to give us the outdated version. I look forward to the update then!

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