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So the IndieGameStand Store is finally here

Official thread for the IGS Store

Post September 29th, 2013, 2:12 pm

Posts: 332
Location: Yorktown Heights, New York

Just realized another feature that would be helpful: allow developers to add demos. Steam Marines, 8-bit Night, 99 Levels, Megabyte Punch, and more all have demos
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Post September 30th, 2013, 10:38 am

Posts: 157
dliebner wrote:
Actually, we had to remove GOG keys from our store offerings per their request.


That's sort of fair enough, after all you're directly competing with them now. Still... that is quite a loss for me. It means that if a game is on GOG as well as here, I'm more likely to just go for GOG.

Post September 30th, 2013, 11:13 am

Posts: 867
I understand, ofc, why they did that - they dont want to allow money flow outside of their store, but, imho, its stupid and bad idea.
GOG.com lacks popularity, and instead of taking opportunity they prefer to keep their store shut off. Oh well.
Its just like early game consoles, where vendor of consoles forbid any third party developers to develop games for it.
Well, bad for them.

Bronxsta wrote:
Just realized another feature that would be helpful: allow developers to add demos. Steam Marines, 8-bit Night, 99 Levels, Megabyte Punch, and more all have demos


Imho IGS should not be free hosting for demos. Better idea is for developers to provide link of demos thet hosted themself

Post September 30th, 2013, 5:49 pm

Posts: 58
Location: Portugal
BAHH! Just when I thought now you could get the linux games in IGS with gog keys to tackle their non-linux policy. oh well...

By the way I noticed there are a few games with Android. Will there be a link for Android games like the one for Mac / Linux? Besides that I like the overall aspect of the store but won't contribute much till I get a decent job first :P

Post September 30th, 2013, 10:39 pm

Posts: 157
Toyotame wrote:
I understand, ofc, why they did that - they dont want to allow money flow outside of their store, but, imho, its stupid and bad idea.
GOG.com lacks popularity, and instead of taking opportunity they prefer to keep their store shut off. Oh well.
Its just like early game consoles, where vendor of consoles forbid any third party developers to develop games for it.
Well, bad for them.


GOG only lacks popularity compared to Steam, they're probably the second most popular after Steam or maybe third after the Humble Store too. Either way, GOG certainly isn't lacking popularity compared to IGS (who isn't well known at this point at all). Now if Steam was offering GOG keys then I'd agree with you, it'd be stupid for GOG to stop that, but given that IGS is less well known than GOG, GOG aren't as likely to get new customers from people registering GOG keys. They're much more likely to be people like me who already have a GOG account full of games.


Posts: 1360
Location: Ottawa, Canada

This is probably an unrealistic suggestion, but I'd also like to see direct download links that play nice with download managers. I use Orbit, and giving it an IndieGameStand url to suck on just doesn't work. Maybe because it's a .php or something, I don't know.

I will rarely buy games without desura or steam keys here (unless I know it's a small download) because those services allow me to pause and resume my download later (as well as throttle the bandwidth, in the case of Steam).
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Posts: 93
I'm not that interested in the IGS store. The IGS features are what brought me here, and I use it more as a discovery service where I can pick up titles I haven't heard of before. For me, the store does not add anything that GOG, the Humble Store, and direct dev sales already provide.

That being said, I think the IGS store is an important secondary service to allow the purchase of games after their 96-hour feature period, and I'm also sure that it will add a nice trickle of extra funds to the IGS bank account.

These are what I think will be the hinges of success for the IGS store:

    Focus on supporting the features. The features are what make IGS unique, and the 96-hour period is a clever mechanic for both marketing and driving sales. Splitting the focus between the store and the features is likely to lessen the strength of the features, and subsequently, the brand. Build the store to encourage participation in the features, rather than the other way around.
    Don't include buyer comments on store pages. Policing comments is a time-sink that has killed many, many online vendors. Unless you have a group of full-time moderators to curate the comments, it WILL devolve and become a liability to both IGS and the game's page. Curated reviews and descriptions are much preferred for both investment and results. Imagine a wine list with hundreds of Moscato d'Asti fans (sweet, bubbly white) complaining that a Cabernet Sauvignon (dry, fruity red) leaves a dry taste in the mouth, when that's simply a common feature of any Cab Sauv. One or two examples of professional tasting notes are significantly more effective. Un-curated chatter should be left to forums and other feedback mechanisms where a misinformed complaint can do less damage.
    Don't have sales in the store. There is an old marketing truth about sales and coupons: they are good for short-term sales numbers at the expense of the long-term profits. If IGS wants to truly help developers, store sales should be avoided like the plague. It boosts sales temporarily for a game, but it lessens the value of both that product and others in the same store. Stores like Steam will always be able to go lower, and the IGS features are where the sales should be. Once you start having sales in the store, IGS will have difficulty getting any full-priced sales at all, which effectively defeats the purpose of having a non-sale game even listed. This is an example of "little hardware store" versus Home Depot. Home Depot can absorb the cost of sales by selling other products when customers come in, but the "little hardware store" needs to make a profit on nearly every item in order to stay afloat. Steam already has the Home Depot model going, so unless IGS wants to go head-to-head against Steam, it's probably best to stay as far away as possible from the store sales model.
    Be choosy about games in the store. Growing the store presents new problems of discovery, and no one has solved this problem well for games. When the catalog reaches a certain size, it becomes extremely difficult for any one game to be found except by someone who already knows it is there. Having a well-chosen list of games is different, because it means that a customer could come to IGS expecting to find something interesting that s/he may or may not have heard of before. This is a boutique model that I think would serve IGS well. It could create a buffer between the IGS store and GOG/Steam/Desura and allow IGS to co-exist without directly competing.

Of course, I could be completely wrong about all of this. Maybe IGS wants to compete with Steam, Desura, and GOG, in which case, my advice would be completely off-base. Or I could just be wrong in general; that's always a possibility. Only time will tell.


Posts: 273
Re: So the IndieGameStand Store is finally here
Post by dinre » 14 minutes ago
>snip<


I agree with you mostly but not quite.. [wall of text]

- Features YES! Absolutely! BUT I see it as a Store with a 'special deal', not a 'special deal' with a Store as you seem to do.
- Comments Fully agree. User input is valuable but limit it to a score or such in the Store.
- Sales Fully disagree. Several indie devs I've seen mention that 90% of their revenue came/comes from Humble Bundles and/or Steam Sales.
Yes. The value is lower per item, but selling 100 copies at 50% is better than a fraction of that or none. Impulse buys especially are basically limited
to 'on-sale' items in general. And let's not forget that a LOT of sales are to promote the studio or the next-game-in-line by them. It shouldn't be a suprise
that e.g. Humble featured devs always seem to have a new title around the corner (or as niche and just need to get their stuff out to be fed ^^)
There's not so much a Steam vs rest-of the world thing as IGS doesn't compete but complements Steam/Desura.
Humble widgets and Amazon mostly price-match Steam Sales as well, why would IGS remain expensive? That would cost sales for the Store
and get less money to the dev. Like 'the little hardware store', IGS offers things you 'HomeDepot' does not. You're assuming competing on raw sales.
I don't think IGS has any illusions on becoming Steam MKII at a fraction of the money Valve has.
- Choosy It's a niche that IGS serves, and serves them well. They should keep to that, I agree. But somehow I think that was the plan judging from games
offered so far. Shiny Loot tried/tries to achieve to do the same but fails to succeed as they have not gotten a name for themselves, lack the service, try to actually offer the same
software as Steam/Desura often but do not provide keys excluding a minority which of course makes them VERY expensive.


[/wall of text]


Posts: 1360
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Duck wrote:
Shiny Loot tried/tries to achieve to do the same but fails to succeed as they have not gotten a name for themselves, lack the service, try to actually offer the same software as Steam/Desura often but do not provide keys excluding a minority which of course makes them VERY expensive

ShinyLoot offers keys about as consistently as IGS so far: at the end of the day it's up to the developers if they want to upload activation keys to IndieGameStand, and some of them just choose not to. Which is disappointing to me as someone who has trouble downloading large files directly, but understandable I guess.
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Posts: 867
I have to agree and disagree to some points here.
First, features...so far i see it like developers themselves add games in store, upload builds and keys and so on. Not like there is need of giant work from IGS stuff. I dont sure if IGS stuff work on attracting devs into store, but i sure that having game present already in store makes chances to get it on 96h deal even bigger.

Comments. Well, we sure dont want some kind of youtube comments madness in store, yes. But maybe some little kind of way to have feedback to developer would be not THAT bad?

Sales in store. Here i at same time agree and disagree. Basically its correct, that sales overall makes gamers not willing to pay full price, i can confirm that by myself...BUT, on other side, i got on sales a lot of games i would be ever purchasing for full price for various reasons - too big price (imho 15$ is not "small" price), genre i usually dont play, or even general "nothing catch my eye". Some such sales turned to be good games, some not...
Also, concurrent sales - when everywhere game is on sale there is no reason to keep full price, since peoples just will not bite it. Not in a;; cases, fc. for example i personally dont care for Steam and Amazon sales, but if games is on sale on Desura or Humble Store, why get it for bigger price?

Be choosy - this one i support fully. Lets take IndieVania store for example - they started not bad but accepted literally ANY game and very soon become FILLED with various crap. Some of their games was quite good, but most - not very much. Some developers gone that far so they started selling early prototypes.
I already see some games in IGSStore i would not personally allow here, AmpuTea for example. I hope IGSStore will not become full of junk...(through it would be not bad idea to check Indievania store and try to convince promising developers to jump here, since IndieVania have exceptionally bad customer service).

GnomeSlice wrote:
ShinyLoot offers keys about as consistently as IGS so far: at the end of the day it's up to the developers if they want to upload activation keys to IndieGameStand, and some of them just choose not to. Which is disappointing to me as someone who has trouble downloading large files directly, but understandable I guess.


Not in all cases. I seen some games present at least on Desura with no mention of keys...SL prices often is very competing, but lack of Desura keys often drive me off.
Last edited by Toyotame on October 2nd, 2013, 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Posts: 273
ShinyLoot offers keys about as consistently as IGS so far: at the end of the day it's up to the developers if they want to upload activation keys to IndieGameStand, and some of them just choose not to. Which is disappointing to me as someone who has trouble downloading large files directly, but understandable I guess.


IGS Store's ratio for having Desura keys for Desura games is already better than Shiny Loot's and they've been live for what? Half a year at least now?
I kept reminding their reps on Reddit of it and it basically comes down to devs/publishers not willing to give them keys for the amount they're paid by ShinyLoot.
If they want their margins to be bigger and cut out the keys, it's their asses on the line, the devs are getting the exposure from just being in the store. Let's not forget the amount of hits even their posts on Reddit gets their Store..
Add to that that SL is just expensive for items not on sale even if you do take the normal sales price into account. They're trying to come close to retail prices without giving any of the benefits. IGS has them beaten on all fronts.

Post by Toyotame » 2 minutes ago >snip<


Basically what my wall of text says too, so I agree with you.

Also shivering myself when I see things like AmpuTea but it does fit the profile :p
Beta/Alpha(!) and other such goodness needs extra attention for sure. Be extra extra extra picky. This is not Kickstarter junk market but a shop with an established name to it.


On a side-note:
This is exactly what most stores don't ever get; an established 'fan-base' if you will that are passionate enough to start the dialogue and not just wait for the next newsletter to be mailed around. Think IGS can pat itself on the back for that regardless of what we think of 'how we would do things (better)'.


Posts: 93
@Duck
Thanks for the feedback.

I would like to respond to your third point, not because you disagreed, but because it's an interesting point.

Duck wrote:
- Sales Several indie devs I've seen mention that 90% of their revenue came/comes from Humble Bundles and/or Steam Sales.
[/wall of text]


I have seen the same feedback from devs on Gamasutra and elsewhere, and I would agree to doing sales if the user-base of IGS was as large as Steam's or HumbleBundle's. We can see from the IGS features that a sale is likely to produce sales numbers that are several orders of magnitude smaller than a Steam sale or Humble feature, so the revenue from a sale may not work out as well on IGS. For this reason, I'm skeptical about the use of sales in the store, rather than leaving sales to the IGS feature page.

Regardless of my opinion, we'll see how things work out. I continue to have high hopes for IGS.


Posts: 564
Location: Wilmo Delaware! Represent

I just wanted to pop-in and say that curating our niche of indie games is very important to us, but it's a delicate balance that we're still figuring out. We don't want to deny developers like Steam who have a quirky niche game, but at the same time we don't want a bunch of games that people don't want to play. We're still working on it and the forum approval process has been really helpful.

We are thinking about discover, recommendation engines and more to enhance the experience down the road. We hope that you guys will continue to support our deals and store so that we can continue to evolve our service.

As far as sales go - I think developers need to have control over when/if they're doing sales (or a PWYW deal). We definitely want to focus on what tools developers need/want as a way to continue to attract great games rather than get sucked into the politics of everything.

Finally, we aren't out to compete directly with Steam, GOG, or Desura - those services are all diluted with AAA games and do not focus on indie titles. We're as indie as many of the developers we feature. We have gone out of our way to support all 3 platforms so that players can enjoy games on their preferred service and so developers can easily provide keys for their games.

Thanks for all of the feedback and support.


Posts: 1360
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Toyotame wrote:
Not in all cases. I seen some games present at least on Desura with no mention of keys...SL prices often is very competing, but lack of Desura keys often drive me off.

Yeah, I actually agree with you on that. I bought Mark Leung: Revenge of the Bitch there yesterday (thanks for the heads up by the way), but it's over a Gigabyte in size, and no Desura key. =[

RE. Comments, I still think a use review system would be ideal. As I said earlier, I feel like the way Desura and ShinyLoot do them is a bonus to the service, and I stand by that claim.

mgnade wrote:
As far as sales go - I think developers need to have control over when/if they're doing sales (or a PWYW deal). We definitely want to focus on what tools developers need/want as a way to continue to attract great games rather than get sucked into the politics of everything.

I agree with this in most cases. I like the fact that you guys are giving developers free reign over their game's price in the store. That said, a good sale every now and then never hurt anybody. ;)

Have you guys thought about trying to encourage large groups of developers to put deals on their games at specific points every now and then? For example, around Christmas/New Years, the anniversary of the IGS store? I think events like that can really be a plus, especially when they are really sold to the media. Kind of like 'Steam Summer Sales'. You know what I mean?
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Posts: 564
Location: Wilmo Delaware! Represent

We're definitely not opposed to getting developers together and doing a 'sale event' but how about we focus on wishlists, user reviews systems, etc first?

On that note, a very useful feature (I think) could be a private comments/bug reporting feature that would only be visible to the developer and users who own the game. It would be great for developers to be able to receive and respond to bugs, features etc - especially for alphas/betas - without having the problems distracting on the store page from actually buying the game.


Posts: 1360
Location: Ottawa, Canada

mgnade wrote:
On that note, a very useful feature (I think) could be a private comments/bug reporting feature that would only be visible to the developer and users who own the game. It would be great for developers to be able to receive and respond to bugs, features etc - especially for alphas/betas - without having the problems distracting on the store page from actually buying the game.

This is a great idea, in my opinion, for exactly the reasons you laid out. Sounds like there's more good things to come! ;)
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Posts: 867
mgnade wrote:
Finally, we aren't out to compete directly with Steam, GOG, or Desura - those services are all diluted with AAA games and do not focus on indie titles.

First time i hear someone saying Desura and AAA together...

GnomeSlice wrote:
Have you guys thought about trying to encourage large groups of developers to put deals on their games at specific points every now and then? For example, around Christmas/New Years, the anniversary of the IGS store? I think events like that can really be a plus, especially when they are really sold to the media. Kind of like 'Steam Summer Sales'. You know what I mean?

Yeah, agree on that. I was VERY impressed Summer Sale on GOG. They, ofc, had their own foxy rules to force customers spend more they they was willing for, but still impressive.

GnomeSlice wrote:
I bought Mark Leung: Revenge of the Bitch there yesterday (thanks for the heads up by the way), but it's over a Gigabyte in size, and no Desura key. =[

Actually, this case force me to ask how can ShinyLoot force such sale like Mark Leung: Revenge of the Bitch for 1.40 and IGS still not managed to feature this game? I seen several times deals on SL which really biting IGS.

And i again shyly mention idea of predating over IndieVania :))


EDIT: OH NO!!! IGS did it again - https://indiegamestand.com/store/466/ch ... -commando/
This game is SO AWFUL, its just like a punch in face! ALso, just check its usual price at desura - http://www.desura.com/games/chernobyl-commando
If you really dont want to turn IGS into crapdump non of thes four games should be allowed - http://www.desura.com/company/silden
Now, thing i wanted to say for some time - publisher called KISS. Dear IGS, you should be VERY careful with featuring games from this publisher, since they known for selling both good and AWFUL games.


Posts: 273
Wall of text day, hoozah! >>

First time i hear someone saying Desura and AAA together...

That depends mostly on the vague-ness of terms like 'indie' and 'AAA' which are very personal and not set in stone.
But Paradox eg has been on Desura for quite a while now, they're fairly AAA to me.

Yeah, agree on that. I was VERY impressed Summer Sale on GOG. They, ofc, had their own foxy rules to force customers spend more they they was willing for, but still impressive.

Ditto. Summer Sale at GoG was awesome. I don't think there may even be a need to add a big workload for IGS. Make sure they have the tools, remind them maybe by newsletter 'hey, xmas is coming and we have this and that to make you have a nice event' maybe get a few names on board first. The chicks will follow each other across the pond..

Actually, this case force me to ask how can ShinyLoot force such sale like Mark Leung: Revenge of the Bitch for 1.40 and IGS still not managed to feature this game? I seen several times deals on SL which really biting IGS.

My point exactly! They charge the retail (premium) price but without any benefits that come with it then complain sales are behind.

I'm skeptical about the use of sales in the store, rather than leaving sales to the IGS feature page.

The point is not so much that there NEEDS to be a sale but avoiding/banning sales as you suggest are just bad for everybody involved. Plus if you're more expensive than other due to a sale or not, it sends the wrong message to devs and buyers both.
You don't want to start a pricing war; leave that to the big guys to fight over. You don't want to be like SL either that doesn't price-match ever really and is more expensive to begin with. Let the devs decide whether they want to match prices w sales on Steam or whatever like Humble does, but don't take away the right or ability to do so. It's on them then.

We're definitely not opposed to getting developers together and doing a 'sale event' but how about we focus on wishlists, user reviews systems, etc first?
On that note, a very useful feature (I think) could be a private comments/bug reporting feature that would only be visible to the developer and users who own the game. It would be great for developers to be able to receive and respond to bugs, features etc - especially for alphas/betas - without having the problems distracting on the store page from actually buying the game.

A 1-on-1 sounds awesome. Valuable to 'us' to know somebody gets our complaints/pats on the back/DxDIAG reports and for them as they know that the feedback option is there and who to go to and where. Reviews are touch-and-go, don't go like Desura eg. Most don't enter why they voted what they did so it's useless. Nor do you want to make it into a shout/complain box ;)

since they known for selling both good and AWFUL games.

They have good games? They're my Jowood from the UK to be fair.

> > Here endeth wall of text part deux


Side note: Seems we all basically agree even if the wording is different. Apart from having sales then >glares< ;)
That's a rare thing I'd say..


Posts: 867
Duck wrote:
They have good games?

More or less. Grimind for example, Bloop, Shadows on the Vatican - Act 1: Greed - all at least not bad games. But this Chernobyl Bla-bla - is 100% crap. Nobody going to pay for them. Especially considering that they have constant sale for that game on Desura.


Posts: 273
So not crap basically? :P

It's all still a bit Topware to me. But then that's in the store too :twisted:

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